Tuesday, November 27, 2012
The Abortion Debate: Initial Reactions
During the next few weeks, we will be considering the issue of abortion intensively from a variety of perspectives -- ethical, religious, political, and legal. We will attempt to enrich our conceptual vocabulary and improve our arguments about the issue in the coming days. That said, it's always interesting to see where we're starting on such a controversial issue. With this in mind, please take NO LESS than 10 sentences to answer the following questions: What are your reactions to the Frontline documentary? And what are your views on abortion?
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I thought the film was interesting and that it taught me a lot of things I didn't know like I never knew about the situation in Mississippi. I like hearing both sides of the topic, pro-life and pro-choice,because I've never been able to simply choose one side to take on the argument. I think women should have a choice on abortion, but I think there are many complications with just giving this choice with no regulations. I personally don't know how America and the world should face the issue of abortion, because it is so complicated. I know that when I have discussed abortion before I always lean towards the pro-choice side, but I do feel strongly about how many things could go wrong with women having the option of having an abortion. I suppose to me it is the most just option for the rights of women and their bodies, but even that can be a difficult subject to agree on. One of the articles that said we can't really associate a woman's body with something such as property, which I think is really true, but I thought it was interesting how people are trying to find something that is similar to woman's body. Abortion is an interesting and hard subject, but I think it should be an interesting discussion topic.
ReplyDeleteOne aspect that I thought was interesting about the film was how the only men in the film were the narrator and pro-life spokespeople. All of the people representing the pro-choice standpoint were women, and although there were many women with pro-life opinions, there were also men backing them up. I think that men can have opinions about abortion, but until they experience pregnancy they cannot tell a woman what to do with her body, so I was intrigued about the lack of pro-choice men.
ReplyDeleteI consider myself to be pro-choice, and more importantly, pro-education. I think that it is unacceptable to only teach your side of the argument, and that the Crisis Centers in the film are perfect examples of why it isn’t ok. Instead of having a center to deal with the pregnancy after it’s happened, I think that Mississippi should focus on establishing preventative measures and teaching about birth control and contraception. I don’t care if they begin by saying “You shouldn’t have sex until you’re married”, as long as the students understand how and where they can get help.
The video we watched today during class left me feeling physically sick. I had this deep churning feeling down in my stomach because it struck such a strong chord with me. That said, I enjoyed the video considering I think abortion is a very important topic that should be discussed. I'm extremely pro-choice for a big variety of reasons, some extremely personal and some more general. I don't understand why it's so hard for people to let everyone make a decision about what they're going to do with their own body. If you personally believe abortion is wrong then you simply don't have to get one, there is absolutely no justification of preventing other women who have different beliefs from getting one.
ReplyDeleteIt was very shocking to hear that there is only one abortion clinic in the state of Mississippi and even more shocking to see the negative and disturbing things said to the women by pro-lifers who attended that clinic. It upsets me to see how the human race seems to be unable to get past their own views. This video just proved how people have a hard time considering the whole picture and realizing that what might be right for them is not necessarily the best for others.
I found the documentary terrifying. There are numerous problems with the idea of an "abortion free state" overall, and as Eva pointed out, teaching abstinence is not an effective method. (Looking at you, Bristol Palin.) However, I feel this way about the pro life movement overall; they should be renamed "pro fetus," because by closing down these clinics they are sacrificing the life of the mother. Another thing is that by limiting access to contraception and emergency contraception, they are only exasperating the initial problem. How does bringing unwanted children into the world a solution? There are so many children in foster homes, and it is not something wished upon any child. Once these unwanted fetuses are born and grow into children, I do not see the pro life movement advocating for their rights as they did the unborn child.
ReplyDeleteI know that I am on the radical end of the spectrum when it comes to abortion. I am adamantly "pro choice," although I think that having these distinctions between the two view points only polarizes the situation and presents the pro life option as viable. (Which, to me it is not.) I say this because fighting against abortion is futile. Women have always found ways to terminate pregnancies dating back thousands of years, so by taking away a safe, sterile, and legal way to do this, they are making the situation inherently anti life by presenting a needless risk to the mother. However, I feel as though I should say that I do not think abortions are something to be taken lightly. In my ideal world, contraception would be readily available enough and sexual education informative enough that abortions would be few and far between. I do not appreciate other people telling me what to do with my body. It is not there decision. It is not the man's decision. Hell, maybe I should make vasectomies illegal because they prevent future children from being born! Or, if we make this a truly religious argument, then men who "spill their seed" should be killed. (Genesis 38:9) Overall, the problem is anti women. It sustains the status quo of subordination and inferiority by presenting this as a legal problem of which both sexes have equal say (which in reality they do not as men dominate the house and senate.) As I see it, coming down to the end it is the women's decision and the women's alone.
The documentary was a striking untold story (at least, untold to me) about the tense conflict between people on opposite sides of the abortion debate. In me, the film brought about a bittersweet mixture of relief, nostalgia, and anger. I felt both relieved and nostalgic when I saw the kinds of conservative Christian figures I had encountered so frequently in Alabama FINALLY depicted as I remember them--shameless, opinionated, and (to be blunt) kinda dumb-lookin'. All too often does the media associate the Deep South with EITHER southern charm/hospitality OR stereotypical meth-ridden redneck misadventures. This documentary captured the half-baked Bible-thumpery I so painfully endured during my tenure in the Butler County School System.
ReplyDelete(I didn't use the word "abortion" in that whole paragraph!)
However, the film did fill me with a great anger as well. Rachel H made a good observation today about what appeared to be unfairness to Mississippi pro-life activists: the filmmakers appeared to have skewed the conflict in favor of those who condoned abortion (there it is), portraying their pro-life opponents as mentally ill religious fanatics. This is a logical inference, considering the discrepancies between the arguments of the opposing camps, but I argue that the pro-choice people in the film seem less religious because the pro-life people can ONLY root their arguments in religion if they are to be convincing. I notice that pro-life Christians often not only ignore, but consciously BLOCK OUT pro-choice arguments, not wanting to be seduced by evil, certain that any argument on behalf of something that is in any way anti-Christian is irrelevant. I'm glad we're going to examine the abortion debate from "ethical, religious, political, and legal" perspectives since religious arguments in the negative are all too often met with legal ones in the affirmative, political arguments in the negative met with ethical ones in the affirmative, etc. Dialogues pertaining to abortion are unlikely to go anywhere unless the participants speak in similar terms, and with similar motivations.
I don't want to go off on another Libertarian rant, but this is really a matter the FEDERAL government should have no part in deciding. The PEOPLE at large are not in danger of "overabortion," if there could even be such a thing; abortion is a measure to undo a conceivably (no pun intended) preventable act, and if the operation is of no harm to the mother, the only possible victim thereof is, obviously, a sentient fetus (as opposed to an indifferent embryo who would not feel any pain) who ARGUABLY could be doomed to an impoverished or otherwise trying life with a mother who either didn't want him/her OR didn't give birth to him/her. We can't ask our leaders to put embryos over humans. It's "We the people" not "We the fertilized human eggs." IF ANYTHING, the federal government (and leaders all over the world, for that matter) should EMBRACE abortion; we could be approaching an overpopulation problem already, without the FIFTY MILLION Americans who would've been born over the past thirty years had abortion never been decriminalized (not to mention the potential babies OF the babies aborted twenty or more years ago).
In 2008, I was thirteen, and I didn’t have firm beliefs on abortion. My best friend, an over-zealous Christian, emailed me pictures of aborted fetuses. They were bloody and chopped up, much more disturbing than what was shown in the Frontline video. Referring to the upcoming presidential election, my friend captioned the email “I’m scared for all the unborn babies.” I sent back my agreement, and I felt fine.
ReplyDeleteWell, my beliefs changed when I stopped hanging out with over-zealous Christians. I moved into the stage of “I’m-okay-with-it-but-I-wouldn’t-do-it-personally.” And I stayed in that stage for a while, because I didn’t have to think about actually having a baby. Instead, I thought about my “morals.”
But then I had a dream, a really epic dream, and my beliefs changed overnight. It made me realize the following: I, personally, would have an abortion if I could pregnant right now. I believe in abortions under all conditions. If a girl ends up pregnant and honestly doesn’t want to have that baby, I don’t want her to have to. I believe in supporting the life that is already here, and each person has different needs. Some need babies, some need anything but. It will be on the woman’s own conscience if she feels guilty about the abortion, or if she doesn’t get into Heaven. If the fetus feels pain, that’s unfortunate. But I don’t think it gets rights until it is born, and as such, go ahead and abort it. And if it’s a single mother who can’t support another baby, that’s fine too. Or even if she can support another baby and is super rich and could hire nannies. Accidents happen. I guess I feel that just as I own my lungs and my blood, I own whatever is inside my body, fetus included.
The Frontline video made me very sad. Surrounded by like-minded people, it’s easy to forget that rights I consider so basic aren’t basic at all. And poor Mississippi. Somewhere today, a frightened teenager tried to get a bus ticket out of that state so she could stop growing a person in her belly, and everyone in her path tried to make the process unbearable. Now that we're talking about abortion are minority rights finally important?
Cringe. The fact that another person wants to tell me what to do with my own body is disgusting. Now there are obviously a lot of contradictions on the pro-life side, but I don't feel these need to be addressed so urgently because they should be obvious. ex. "So you love the baby until he's a Muslim or gay or poor" and "Don't talk about contraceptives and don't have an abortion." I do think that the video is biased, but only in the sense that it showed so many extremists. There are many pro-lifers who don't feel the need to stalk abortion clinics shouting "Mama, it's going to hurt!" I wish the video had showed them.
Now that I’ve had a little while to digest the movie, I feel a little bit manipulated. I have no idea how anyone could’ve felt sympathetic to the pro-lifers in that movie. I have heard thirteen-year-olds who argue the pro-life stance with more intelligence and with more empathy. All I got from that movie was a bunch of people wanting to end abortion with no specific reasons except that it was killing babies and no explanations as to how they came to that conclusion. I also really disliked the way they handled the poverty issue. There was no way to watch that part of the movie without getting angry at their situation, and I think the impulse is to believe that that anger is directed only towards the fact that those women cannot get an abortion, when really the anger goes deeper than that. It’s an anger towards the fact that that type of poverty exists in the first place and that all those women were black and that no one had provided them with options or even inform them that those options exist and that they looked so unhappy. The fact that they had not access to an abortion is only a very small part of that. If a rich woman couldn’t get an abortion, I wouldn’t feel nearly as bad even though the same right is being prevented. The movie made it seem like what would truly help those people was easy access to abortion when what I really thing they needed was access to contraception and preventive education as well as general education and job opportunities and a stable home environment and money. If that girl was in denial for 6 months about her pregnancy, there was nothing access to an abortion could have done.
ReplyDeleteFor my own personal stance: I can see both sides of the issue. I’m sure everyone else will pretty much cover the pro-choice side of that, so I’ll focus on pro-lifers, because I think they are two separate conversations. Every time I have a conversation about abortion someone says that it’s okay for people to have their beliefs but don’t impose their beliefs on others. Which makes sense for some things. You believe that alchohol is evil? Good for you. You don’t believe in evolution? I’ll just be over here with all the people who believe in science. You think women are inferior? Great, just stay waaay over there and try not to talk to anyone; your crazy might be contagious. But I think it can be universally agreed that murder is wrong. I think we all agree that killing babies is extremely wrong. So if you truly are convinced that abortion equates killing an innocent life, I would lose serious respect for you if you weren’t doing everything in your power to prevent it. Pro -lifers believe that they are working to prevent murders. After that, any talk of womens’ rights or fetuses or even the law becomes irrelevant. You literally cannot present an argument that justifies what they believe to be murder.
Also there is an uncomfortable amount of uncertainty around the subject. Maybe I just don’t know, but I’ve never been clear as to when exactly the fetus becomes a baby. At 3 months? When It can feel pain? What about 2 months and 29 days? What about the day before it feels pain? At least saying life begins at conception covers all your bases.
I don’t necessarily believe they’re right, and I think they’re going about it the wrong way. I think it’s a huge mistake to rule out contraception. And why aren't any of these anti-abortion doctors dedication their lives to proving (with science) that life begins at conception? I just want inform them that there is a significant portion of the population that isn't Christian, that isn’t even religious. Using “because Jesus said so” as your primary evidence just isn't going to cut it.
My initial reaction to the video contained quite a mixture of emotions.I'm glad we watched it because we always here about these debates and cases happening, but never really in context. I had no idea that abortion was so heavily opposed to the level I saw in the documentary. Honestly, I was really disgusted with the personal and emotional detachment I saw from the pro-lifers about the "I'm not cool with you killing your baby" approach. It's completely confusing to me how any person, male or female, could try and dictate how another person should live their (in this case her) life. I was pretty disturbed by the push for an "abortion-free state". I had no idea that idea even existed. I can understand opposition, but to deny the rights of essentially every woman in the state HER own choice is completely crazy in my mind.Personally, I take the pro-choice stance in the fact that I just don't think another person or entity should control the choices and rights of a woman and what she believes is best for her life and situation, be it poor, rich, black, white, Hispanic,etc. I know that no mother or potential mother would want to go through a horrific ordeal like an abortion, and I don't think religion of any kind, nor any government should tell these women, and even girls, they're completely heartless for even considering the action. I think it's just dumb really to try and get rid of something women will find a way to do anyway, and not necessarily safely. Wouldn't you rather safer procedures? More information and access for birth control, so women don't even have to come to that point? One would assume. I don't want anyone telling me what I can and can't do with my body. I had a really hard time trying to see the intelligence on the pro-life side through the video.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, the documentary leaned toward pro-choice supporters then it was needed. I can understand what both sides are trying to say but it seem that the documentary portrait a very extreme side of pro-life. I think that it would have been a more powerful documentary to me if it was less bias. I never thought much about the topic since conversations like these never came up in any major way like now. With that said, my views in the topic at hand are not entirely one sided. Growing up many of my views were highly influence by my parents and this topic is one of them. To me, at the moment of conception is the deciding factor of when a person is born. This would put me in the Pro-Life spectrum but I do not believe that abortion should be made illegal. I agree when people say that women have the choice to do what they want with their bodies. I think that there are cases where abortion might be the right choice in cases such as rape, etc. Unlike the Pro-Life activists in the documentary, my views are not strictly derived from my religious background. I think that using birth control or adoption are better options than abortion in cases of unwanted pregnancies in which the mother is not in danger. I believe that it finally comes down to what the mother thinks is best for her and her family. I believe that it is important for women to be well informed about every aspect of her pregnancy as much as what her baby looks like at that point and what other options are available like abortion). Lastly, I think that it is important to understand that topics like this can not categorize people into two bands such as Pro-Life and Pro-Choice. It is also important to understand that one person's opinion in a particular topic does not mean one can assume their position in other controversial topics.
ReplyDeletePeople can't own other people's bodies. This is a fundamental principle that I have founded my life on. In my case, I just think people should mind their own business. If a lady wants to save your baby, good for her! Great! Just don't impose your beliefs directly upon another person. Standing outside an abortion clinic shouting "I want to see your face, mommy" really makes me wonder about everyone's moral integrity.
ReplyDeleteI will take the viewpoint that many in this class already share, I'm siding with the pro-choicers in the film. The Pro-biblethumpers seemed to be unorganized, hateful, and a bit ignorant. When you couple ignorance with hate, atrocities begin. It is even harder to sympathize with the pro-lifers because they don't all necessarily believe in non-violent protest. If they are so concerned with the well-being of a fetus, why would they think it's alright to kill someone else? Is it just bad to kill a fetus because it's a fetus? Another thing, why won't they help the baby after it is born? I mean come on, do they not care about the well-being of those who had the baby?
It made me a bit scared that this is the current (well, current 5 years ago) state of free rights in our country. These people seem to interpret freedom of speech as "my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge."
As I said before, I don't feel particularly qualified to be able to tell people to have abortions, or not to have abortions, but I do feel like I am able to say they should be legal.
There was one moment in the film we watched today in class, where I could not help from being utterly disgusted. This moment came when we saw a shot of a pro-life woman yelling into the health center, “ oh mommy, help me, don’t let them hurt me! I want to see your face!” I could not help but feel so mad at this woman for yelling this outside of the health clinic. Not only was it inappropriate but it was also disgusting. I learned a lot from this film. I did not know about the Mississippi story either. My views on Abortion are simply that I am pro-choice. I have grown up in a house where my mom( a pro- choice OBGYN) had preached the rights of ones body. People SHOULD get the choice to decide their fate. If one cannot provide the necessary needs for a baby, they should be allowed to make the decision for themselves and the baby.
ReplyDeleteI would encourage unbiased and uneducated viewers of The Last Abortion Clinic to seek information elsewhere and take the episode with a grain of salt. As we discussed briefly in class, the video is blatantly and unashamedly geared towards making all pro-lifers out to be often religiously spurred radical extremists. While this image is sometimes accurate and perhaps represents a good portion of the Clarkston pro-life community, taking such severely skewed films to heart is a great way to enter the abortion issue with a heady amount of ignorance. It's simply not as black and white an issue as PBS makes it out to be. I felt like I was watching FOX election coverage. As a result, the depicted speakers did little to upset me - what gets under my skin are people that actually have strong points against the topic. It's easy to discount extremists.
ReplyDeleteAbortion is a tricky political discussion for me because I believe that in many respects, the conservative argument comes from a place that under different circumstances would be the honorable and humane position - the preservation of human life. Putting aside the admittedly crucial argument of whether or not a fetus is actually a life form for a moment, it's important to consider that abortion is a rare case in which the conservative justification arises primarily from the earnest belief that the procedure results in a murder, not from intolerance and bigotry which is so often the case (i.e anti-gay marriage, etc.) Pro-lifers are more appropriately categorized in my mind as misled and ignorant as opposed to evil and discriminatory.
While I would certainly call myself pro-choice, I do take issue with several arguing points that people often use to combat anti-abortionists, particularly one that my classmates have mentioned in their blogposts above - "if you oppose abortion, don't get one. Nobody's forcing you to kill your own baby." I cannot accurately describe the frustration that "points" such as the aforementioned gives me, perhaps because such poorly conceived statements do more to undermine the cause than the opposition. I'm probably going off on a tangent at this point, but this is such a pet peeve of mine. People that oppose abortion, gay marriage, etc. are concerned with what is in their eyes the devolution and regression of America as a civilized society. Key word being society. Failure to understand the reasoning behind the opposition results in poorly fashioned rebuttals that do little but make the liberal standpoint look foolish.
After that mildly irrelevant rant, I'll just conclude in a rather blunt and unoriginal fashion that abortion shouldn't be outlawed because A. extreme circumstance dictates and B. a woman's body is her own.
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ReplyDeleteI felt, like many others in the class, that the Frontline video was very one sided. Most of the video showed facts that seemed to promote a "pro-choice" standpoint on abortion. In defense of the video though, I found that the bias of the video was not enough to jeopardize the information it was attempting to share. While it was obvious that the documentary was made with a "pro-choice" view, I did not feel like the video was made to trick the audience. It seemed more like the video was made just to be informative and not to support either side of the argument, while at the same time it happened to portray some of the bias of the makers, whether or not it was intentional. What I thought was a bigger issue with the video was that it was somewhat uninformative. Maybe people from other backgrounds would have a different opinion, but I did not notice anything that I learned from this video that I had not learned already from being around the progressive society at Paideia. That being said, I still don't think that I know as much as I could, or maybe should, know about abortion. This is one reason why I consider myself "pro-choice", although I do not actively support either side. Being as uninformed as I am about abortion, not to mention also being a man (making abortion a somewhat less personal issue to me), I don't think I should have the right to object to women having abortions if they want.
ReplyDeleteLike many of my classmates, I felt a strong emotional response to this video. The whole issue is very interesting to me, because I don't really know where I stand. I'm not particularly adamant enough in either argument to firmly stand for either side from a political standpoint. One thing, though, that I found interesting about this video was that, like a couple of other things we have watched or encountered in the media, I felt like they painted a picture of the "Pro-Life" side of the spectrum in a certain light, just as they portrayed the "pro-choice" side of the spectrum in a specific way, neither of which could have really been all encompassing. The video seemed to turn into a "poor black people vs rich white people" debate ... but then again, don't they all? I was just very frustrated with the video because I feel like I still was not able to extract a clear reason from either point of view that had not been tainted by a prejudiced aspect on the documentary's part or on the part of the people being filmed.
ReplyDeleteMy personal beliefs on abortion are very complicated, but I just felt like the documentary was kind of skewed in the way that it approached the topic, specific people, and specific cases and instances. Part of what makes this topic so difficult, as Rachel H pointed out in class, is that there are multiple factors that make us feel angry or sympathetic towards certain people in this video. These factors branch out beyond the argument of whether or not women are allowed to have abortions, but instead delve into family structure, mental stability and health, education, environment, etc... and it just felt like the abortion issue served as a mask for other things that need(ed) to be addressed.
As far as the actual content and the view points of both sides ... I'm torn. I think it's important for people who are against abortion (who use religion as their background) to realize a couple of things...
1. Banning this practice through legal means doesn't stop the action, it just makes it harder for women to take control of their own bodies, and it makes the procedure (because women will STILL have abortions whether they're legal or not) unsafe.
2. If you are really that adamant about God and his work, then you need to leave that up to him. If you believe God punishes people for their so-called wrong-doings and he is the ultimate judge, then who are you to try to fill his shoes? If you truly believe that abortions are wrong, then do not get them. I can't be more plain and direct about that. If you don't like it, don't do it, and let God be the ultimate judge. He didn't bring you here to do his job for him.
3. This is something that affects a woman's body and her psychological health. She has to go through a lot before, during, and after her decision to terminate her pregnancy. I think that it's completely COMPLETELY inappropriate for people to protest outside of abortion clinics spouting prayers and bible scriptures and saying things like "mama let me live" as we saw in the video. I think that's horrible and disgusting. HOW DARE YOU, as human being, and another child of God, set out to shame and reprimand one of your own? HOW DARE YOU. It's simply revolting. I believe that's crossing the line and it's inappropriate.
I was just very disappointed by what I saw in that video. I thought that the approach was tacky at times, and it was clearly biased in delivery. I was hoping that I'd get a clearer understanding of this issue and these concepts from the video.